So I've been reading a couple of topics on the Bio Boards about haking and the such. I wanted to ask your opinion of a few questions here.
1. Which modules do you prefer, haked or hak free? Why?
2. Would you not play a module because it was hak free? Why?
3. Would you not play a module because it had too many haks? Why?
4. What is your general opinion of haks? (see my answer to give you an idea)
My answers:
1. I have no preference. It's the story that attracts me to a module.
2. No. I believe that if you're going to limit yourself to those standards then you're excluding several good modules on the vault that are hak free. It seems a little like not going to see a good movie because you don't like the seats at the theater.
3. No, but I have been tempted. I thought about joining a PW, then I found out it had 800+ MB of haks. I still downloaded and installed them, but it was a tedious process.
4. I believe haks and are nice additions to modules but not absolutely needed. They should be a side dish. The main course will be the story.
Hmmm. . . Haking in a module. . . I really try to avoid haking in general, it hurts my throat, and I quit smoking 7 years ago, so I don't do it as much. . . Oh! That's not what you mean? . . . Sorry, my bad. ::)
I suppose you'd like a serious answer now. ;D
1. I don't really play modules much, but when I do, it doesn't really matter.
2+3. I would never avoid playing a module because it did or didn't have a hak.
4. My general opinion of haks is that they add a lot of really good stuff. I use the CEP personally and a custom music hak. They are nice touches that bring a module to another level. Then you have guys like Fester Pot who makes works of art, not just modules. Most persistant worlds have haks and are better for it. The best modules are those that are interesting with good stories though. It doesn't matter if there is custom content if there is a good story. . . Or Zombie Bob, you can skip the hak and a good story if you have a character named Zombie Bob in you module. ;)
I should probably preface my answers here by emphasizing that how a module is built is obviously the main factor in producing quality work. Extensive custom content is only of benefit to a module if it's well used -- to create an experience that would be impossible without it. Otherwise, flashy cc is just eye and ear candy -- like movies that substitute special effects for quality cinema and storytelling.
With that caveat stated, though, here are my thoughts.
1. All other things being equal or unknown, I prefer modules that use custom content haks (and music) to ones that don't. That's for the simple (and, I think, obvious) reason that a builder can do a better job of creating an immersive module experience if he has more material to work with. When a modder builds with haks, what that suggests to me is that he didn't just settle for whatever the toolset had available to build with. There are exceptions, of course, but I think it generally indicates that the author had a vision, and that he put thought and effort into finding and developing the cc needed to better create that vision. That's certainly why I make heavy use of custom content as a builder myself.
2. Absent other information, I would be less inclined to believe that a module that was hak-free was likely to be a quality work, and thus less likely to play it.
3. I've never encountered a module that I was unwilling to play because it had too many haks. I have a broadband connection, and downloading large haks isn't difficult or particularly off-putting for me.
4. I think that haks are in general indispensible to creating top-notch NWN/NWN2 mods. That's not to say that one cannot make a good module without them, if the scope of your vision for it doesn't go beyond needing the content that was included in the baseline toolset. But in my view, in order to create the highest quality and a truly exceptional mod experience, you need a vision with a more expansive scope. As with everything else, doing great work means pushing the boundaries of what's possible and what has been done before, and setting new standards in that regard. I approach modding as a new art form, as a kind of interactive virtual cinema, and one that we are just beginning to understand and develop.
That brings me to Tybae's remark, which I'd like to comment on:
Quote from: Tybae on November 12, 2008, 10:50:43 PMI believe haks and are nice additions to modules but not absolutely needed. They should be a side dish. The main course will be the story.
With all due respect to Tybae, I have a fundamental disagreement with this view. The problem with it, I think, is that it doesn't acknowledge a crucial fact, not only about different mediums of storytelling, but about art in general. That's the fact that
all art is medium-dependent. This is as true of storytelling as it is of other forms of art.
There is no such thing as a disembodied story, detached from any medium of expression. A story by its nature is told
in some form,
by some means, and
in some way -- and the form, means, and way that it is told is part and parcel of the story itself. Stated more simply, you cannot separate the "what" and the "how" of a story, except as an abstract exercise that strips away the very artistic experience that the story is trying to create in the first place. (As an illustration, compare the experience of reading a book to reading a plot synopsis of it.)
How a book tells a story, or
how a movie dramatizes it, is part of the story itself.
I think the same is true of modding. The kind of storytelling experience that a module creates depends completely on how it's told, and how it
uses the various media that comprise a CRPG module to tell it. These include prose (dialogue, journals), animation, action, sound effects, visuals (including tilesets and models, and how they are used), and so on. And as I've also argued before, one of the main qualities that makes for good storytelling is attention to detail, and to trying to make every aspect of how the story is told work together to create a compelling experience. Since I think about these issues constantly in my own mod work, let me take "Sanctum of the Archmage 2" as an example.
(*Minor Spoiler Warning*)
Those who've played it know about the Wind-Walking scenes, in which the player and his companions have to fly to other lands to acquire allies to meet a coming attack. Those scenes were made possible by Ninjaweaselman's Space Tileset, and by the flying phenotypes in the CEP. Without them, they would have been completely impossible, and I would instead have had to omit the entire travel sequence. I would have had to replace it with a simple transition from the peak at Mount Cassandra to the parapet of King Harold's Castle in Rayche, with perhaps a stopover for the cave scene. The drama of the storm would have been lost entirely, including the mood-setting effect of the skybox I used there (thanks to the Community Skybox Pack). I don't view those aspects of the module's storytelling experience as "side dishes" that are relatively unimportant compared to the main storyline. They are part and parcel of the module's stortelling experience, and of the way that the module tries to tell the main storyline itself. And that's to say nothing of my v3.0 update to Sanctum 1, and the (I think, major) impact of the storytelling opportunities created by the one new tileset that I added to it.
(*End Minor Spoiler Warning*)
So my message, basically, is that custom content is not (or does not have to be) just eye and ear candy tacked on to a story, that would be substantially the same with or without it.
If used well, it can create whole new storytelling possibilities. That's why I'm such a devotee of the intelligent and artistic use of custom content, and why I tend to lean toward modules that try to use it.
LOL. I guess I should have elaborated a little. :)
If it's an integral part of the story and the only way to convey that story is with CC, then by all means, use it. If a story is not complete with the CC, then it needs to be used. In Sanctum 2, there would be no wind walking scenes without CC. Without the wind walking scenes, Sanctum 2 would not be complete, hence the use of the CC.
Your caveat was what I was thinking when I made that statement. Your exactly right when a movie tries to dazzle you with special effects that have nothing to do with the price of tea in China, it makes the movie less appealing. Same goes for modules. It's the Jessica Simpson situation. Man is she nice to look at, but dumb as a post.
The whole purpose of this was that I saw several people commenting on the Bio Boards that they would not play a module/PW without haks. In my opinion, if you have that attitude, you could be overlooking a really good module. Case and point, the Blackguard Trilogy. A very well done module with no haks, just heavy scripting. When someone says that they won't play a module because it doesn't have haks, that says to me that they are being a little closed minded. Maybe it's just me, but that's what I get from that. Since Andarian pointed out that he would be less likely to play the module, says to me that he's open minded about playing a module without haks, but it's not his preference. That's absolutely fine with me and my stance with it as well. Will I be less likely to play a module because it doesn't have haks, probably, but it won't stop me from giving it a shot with an open mind.
Quote from: Tybae on November 12, 2008, 10:50:43 PM
So I've been reading a couple of topics on the Bio Boards about haking and the such. I wanted to ask your opinion of a few questions here.
1. Which modules do you prefer, haked or hak free? Why?
2. Would you not play a module because it was hak free? Why?
3. Would you not play a module because it had too many haks? Why?
4. What is your general opinion of haks? (see my answer to give you an idea)
1: I prefer modules with Haks. it usually means you get to see or do something not available to standard NWN2
2: Hak or hak free doesn't matter. The story does.
3: Same as 2
4: haks are awesome.
1. Which modules do you prefer, haked or hak free? Why?
I don't care, the important thing in a module is the history, plot and his building quality
2. Would you not play a module because it was hak free? Why?
Nah, my favourite nwn1 module was Twilight with no haks at all
3. Would you not play a module because it had too many haks? Why?
Ah, make difference between nwn1 and nwn2. In 2002, when i had a slow connection.. yes, it was a mess to enter an online module and have to download 600 mb of haks (i missed some pws because of that). But now in nwn2 we have good connections and you have to download anyway the walkmesh... So, a hak is not a problem
4. What is your general opinion of haks? (see my answer to give you an idea)
They're not a must to build or play BUT they absolutely a beatiful and interesting addition to any module. That will attract people and make your enviroment more believable without doubt. If i want to introduce a beatiful powerful sword into my adventure... would be better to look that it was forged by a Master... Another example, I was testing a PW yesterday, walking into the main city... and i found a new statue (a guy in a horse) that i really loved it, I spent 5 minutes looking the statue.... and later i realiced that i would not have problems to find the town's center while that statue was there. Same for my module... I needed a Flying Building...so I did it, much like Andarian thought their people flying on his module :).
What I mean is.. NWN is alive because of haks and CC, is a MUST as modder. If you can apply wisely your haks to your modules... you beat it. That's it!
The write up the author does in the module description holds the most weight in my decision to play it or not, granted the screen shots play a big part also.
Haks or no haks? I don't care what the author decided to use, I do care how well he/she used whatever he/she chose though.
I have been lucky enough to experience some fantastic adventures both with and without haks, overrides, and custom content.
It all boils down to how well the artist was able to get his/her idea across in the medium he/she chose.
1. Which modules do you prefer, haked or hak free? Why?
2. Would you not play a module because it was hak free? Why?
3. Would you not play a module because it had too many haks? Why?
4. What is your general opinion of haks? (see my answer to give you an idea)
1. Either, though there was a time when only HAK-free mods were viable for me. I still don't tend to play mods with a lot of large haks.
2. No - that's OK, though for NWN1 I am pretty tired of the standard scenary now!
3. Definitely. I'm can't be bothered to wait for ages to download a load of HAKs - and the more HAKs something has, the more likely it seems to be to break.
4. What's a HAK? ::)
I agree 100% with Tybae. Truly, not only because it's shorter like that ;)
Quote1. Which modules do you prefer, haked or hak free? Why?
2. Would you not play a module because it was hak free? Why?
3. Would you not play a module because it had too many haks? Why?
4. What is your general opinion of haks? (see my answer to give you an idea)
1) I used to prefer hak-free because it was such a hazzle to download big haks with my old connection, but nowadays I don't have a preference one way or the other. It may depend a little on what type of content we're talking about. I'm usually not very impressed by new tilesets, but good music interests me, so I might be more inclined to play a module through if the background music is new to me.
2) Certainly not! I will at least start to play it, and then it depends on wether the builder can keep me interested.
3) Nooo, I doubt it. Maybe if I got the impression that the builder had just added a lot of haks to an otherwise uninteresting module in order to make it more impressive somehow, but that hasn't happened so far.
4) They can make a module more interesting!
I think it's important we remember that a hak in NWN1 and a hak in NWN2 are very different animals.
A hak in NWN1 is closer to an override file in NWN2.
I believe Tony could share a little on this, for I believe he is building in both. I've only worked with NWN2 to any real extent.
I did build a small mess around thing in NWN1 but that doesn't count. ;D
Quote from: sirchet on November 18, 2008, 09:15:48 PMI think it's important we remember that a hak in NWN1 and a hak in NWN2 are very different animals.
A hak in NWN1 is closer to an override file in NWN2.
I believe Tony could share a little on this, for I believe he is building in both. I've only worked with NWN2 to any real extent.
I did build a small mess around thing in NWN1 but that doesn't count. ;D
I have done a little building (including hakking) in NWN2, although most of my experience has been with NWN1. I'm afraid I don't agree, though, when you say that haks in NWN1 and NWN2 are very different. In fact, I consider them to be basically the same thing. Unless any of the recent NWN2 patches has changed things, NWN1 haks and NWN2 overrides function very differently and serve very different purposes.
Haks in either game work substantially differently than overrides do. The principal difference is that haks are designed to be module specific, while overrides are designed to affect the player's entire client system. In either game, when you put a hak in your hak folder, it
only affects modules that are built specifying the use of that specific hak name. Overrides, by contrast, affect every module that is loaded on the player's client. This is even true if you put your resources in a module-specific subfolder of the override folder; the NWN2 game loader will still load those overrides, even if they're named and intended for a different module. The only exception is if the module uses a hak that specifies the same resource; in that case (at least under NWN2) the hak version will take precedence. So the search order is: hak (if the module specifies it), then override, then base game.
I tend to be very critical of the use of overrides (for either game), for exactly these reasons. In my view, an override should be something that the
player decides that he wants to use in general in all of his playing (such as TonyK's AI), that he takes responsibility for managing, and for which he accepts the attendant risks. Using overrides can be risky because they may not be compatible with other modules or with game patches. A hak, by contrast, is something that should be specified by
builders rather than players, as needed only for specific modules that have been designed to use it. If a hak breaks, it only affects modules that were built to use it.
Quote from: Tybae on November 12, 2008, 10:50:43 PM
So I've been reading a couple of topics on the Bio Boards about haking and the such. I wanted to ask your opinion of a few questions here.
1. Which modules do you prefer, haked or hak free? Why?
2. Would you not play a module because it was hak free? Why?
3. Would you not play a module because it had too many haks? Why?
4. What is your general opinion of haks? (see my answer to give you an idea)
1. It doesn't matter as long as the story is great. However, I tends to believe with custom contents, the author are more easily to implement their ideas and story.
2. No. As the answer in 1, as long as the story is great, the resources are put into good use, I have no objection on that.
3. hmm...it depends. I have already got boardband connection from the start and I have no problem with large haks. I'm just too lazy to download all of them if there are more than 10 haks required, e.g. those modules which use d20 modern haks.
4. To me, good haks can add in a lot of tilesets, placeables, musics and creatures into the modules, which improve the modules visually and help to inspire the author for more ideas and possible plots. They are just available resources provided for authors to use. It still relies on the authors to put them into good use.
Thank you Tony, I was under the impression that a hak in NWN1 was not as module specific.
I understand about associating a hak with a module in NWN2, do you do the same thing in NWN1?
Also, I believe the games loads haks now before you create a character, so you can take advantage of the hak during char creation. That's if I understood Rob's post correctly.
Quote from: sirchet on November 21, 2008, 11:20:12 PM
Thank you Tony, I was under the impression that a hak in NWN1 was not as module specific.
I understand about associating a hak with a module in NWN2, do you do the same thing in NWN1?
Yes. When you build, you choose what haks to use. Then they are permanently associated with the module.
QuoteAlso, I believe the games loads haks now before you create a character, so you can take advantage of the hak during char creation. That's if I understood Rob's post correctly.
Yes. That has always been the case. This is due to custom races/classes/feats/skills/etc.
Quote from: sirchet on November 21, 2008, 11:20:12 PMThank you Tony, I was under the impression that a hak in NWN1 was not as module specific.
You're welcome -- glad to clarify. :)
QuoteI understand about associating a hak with a module in NWN2, do you do the same thing in NWN1?
Exactly, and in exactly the same way, except for differences in the look of the screens. Just as in NWN2, in NWN1 you open a "module properties" panel and add the haks used to the module's hak list.
EDIT: you can see what the NWN1 screen looks like on page 29 of this manual (http://s.vnfiles.ign.com/nwvault.ign.com/fms/files/other/803/Toolset_Manual_V1.06.pdf) (although the hak list is empty in that image).
QuoteAlso, I believe the games loads haks now before you create a character, so you can take advantage of the hak during char creation. That's if I understood Rob's post correctly.
*Nods* I'd heard that they had that planned for one of the patches.
Quote from: Tybae on November 21, 2008, 11:22:06 PMQuoteAlso, I believe the games loads haks now before you create a character, so you can take advantage of the hak during char creation. That's if I understood Rob's post correctly.
Yes. That has always been the case. This is due to custom races/classes/feats/skills/etc.
I think that's been true of NWN1 for as long as I can remember, but it has been an issue with NWN2. Obsidian really botched the implementation of haks when NWN2 first came out, and they've had a backlog of fixes trying to deal with those problems ever since. That includes a haphazard list of resources that are supposed to work from haks but don't in NWN2 (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/myviewtopic.html?topic=561399&forum=115). I'm still not sure if it's fully resolved yet.
Yeah, you had better make sure your "my Docs" tlk, hak, and override folders are empty when installing Storm of Zehir or you'll miss all the new content.
If you doubt me read this thread (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=656473&forum=128) and you may change your mind. heh heh heh