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#81
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by TimG - October 04, 2011, 05:58:09 PMFinding a silver lining to the Master Server/Bioware mess I got to play Pirates of the Sword Coast finally. The Premium module program was discontinued by the time that I got my first copy of NWN and I always thought PotSC would be fun. I did have fun with it but the ending brought me back here to ponder some more.
Based on the end conversations the game appears to have two possible outcomes. I was happy with the one I chose initially although I did reload from a save and try the other just to see how it went. After "the choice" the game ends pretty abruptly. I am a big fan of a gentle ending that allows the player to check back in the with the NPC's and then end the scenario with a menu choice via conversation. In Pirates I would like to have had a chance to help out/and/or check on the dragon at the end. Abrupt endings seem to be a Bioware staple where NWN is concerned. As a player I find them jarring, why as builders, do people assume the players wouldn't want to tie up loose ends for the characters that they have so much time invested in?
Based on the end conversations the game appears to have two possible outcomes. I was happy with the one I chose initially although I did reload from a save and try the other just to see how it went. After "the choice" the game ends pretty abruptly. I am a big fan of a gentle ending that allows the player to check back in the with the NPC's and then end the scenario with a menu choice via conversation. In Pirates I would like to have had a chance to help out/and/or check on the dragon at the end. Abrupt endings seem to be a Bioware staple where NWN is concerned. As a player I find them jarring, why as builders, do people assume the players wouldn't want to tie up loose ends for the characters that they have so much time invested in?
#82
Golden Dragon Awards Discussion Forum / 2011 AME Cycle GDA Finalists a...
Last post by Andarian - September 21, 2011, 12:42:22 AMPlease see the post on our main page announcing the Summer 2011 Golden Dragon Award Finalists!
NWN1 GDA Finalists for the 2011 AME Cycle (for 2010 awards)
NWN2 and Joint GDA Finalists for the 2011 AME Cycle (for 2009 and 2010 awards)
Also, please feel free to use this thread to discuss the nominees and the awards!
NWN1 GDA Finalists for the 2011 AME Cycle (for 2010 awards)
NWN2 and Joint GDA Finalists for the 2011 AME Cycle (for 2009 and 2010 awards)
Also, please feel free to use this thread to discuss the nominees and the awards!
#83
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by TimG - September 17, 2011, 07:32:17 PMThere's no substitute for high quality journal entries. It adds clarity to the player's purpose when there's no "in game" mechanism to do it.
I think it's also wise to keep elegant simplicity in the forefront. Since coming here I have a new appreciation for what the custom content means and how it enhances the game. That doesn't mean that I need every object on the screen to be clickable for no result. If an item isn't involved in the story in any way then I don't need it to highlight when the tab key is pressed. The Original Campaign is often panned by players but it did have a certain simpleness to it. Sort of "charming way" if you will.
I think that as a player the overwhelming desire is to move the story forward and the different chapters of the OC were well suited to sate that desire. Because of this there can be a tendency to make quests more complicated and convoluted in custom modules because simple quests have a "been there and done that feel". Even so when you are playing a low level character the "been there done that" feel is inevitable. You can't become a higher level PC without a certain amount of low level experience. And low level experience comes at a hard price...
I think it's also wise to keep elegant simplicity in the forefront. Since coming here I have a new appreciation for what the custom content means and how it enhances the game. That doesn't mean that I need every object on the screen to be clickable for no result. If an item isn't involved in the story in any way then I don't need it to highlight when the tab key is pressed. The Original Campaign is often panned by players but it did have a certain simpleness to it. Sort of "charming way" if you will.
I think that as a player the overwhelming desire is to move the story forward and the different chapters of the OC were well suited to sate that desire. Because of this there can be a tendency to make quests more complicated and convoluted in custom modules because simple quests have a "been there and done that feel". Even so when you are playing a low level character the "been there done that" feel is inevitable. You can't become a higher level PC without a certain amount of low level experience. And low level experience comes at a hard price...
#84
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by PJ156 - September 03, 2011, 10:02:22 PMI've just posted somthing similar in the main forum on this. I am a fan of the walkthrough and journal for many of the reasons TimG mentions. Mostly I feel that we as modders are not in competition with players. We don't have to foil them with our complex trickery and if we do we have failed. Some won't be bothered to work out the sequence the plates have to be polished in a walkthrough helps them not to be and keeps everyone happy at the end of the day.
We can chose to peak if we wish or not as the case may be.
PJ
We can chose to peak if we wish or not as the case may be.
PJ
#85
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by QSW - September 03, 2011, 08:10:16 PMWalkthroughs are great for the reasons already mentioned. I'm certainly not opposed to them, and think that under certain circumstances (like becoming utterly frustrated with a puzzle/quest problem) they can save and or enhance a game.
One author's work I played created a walkthrough that while you could see the quests or puzzle titles, you had to highlight the lines under those headers in order to read the solution. I found this a really good way to do it, as it meant that my eye would not 'accidentally' take in solutions to other info...unless I wanted to *waggles eye ridges*
#86
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by Henesua - September 03, 2011, 07:32:58 PMTimG, I feel the same way. I don't have the time or energy to invest in a 20 hour+ epic. The single player modules that I have most enjoyed in NWN are short adventures - less than ten hours long - and the shorter the better. As a side note, this is generally recognized in the gaming industry, and is one of the reasons why casual and social games are so popular.
I think the walkthrough or guide book or spoilers etc... is one method to still have an epic but provide a reminder for someone that comes back to the story.
Another way to handle this I think is to shorten the required playing time to reach a satisfactory ending. You could still maintain an epic but divide it up into manageable pieces. These could be episodes, chapters etc.... Make each of these sections playable in less than two hours (preferably one), and when the section is finished the player can walk away with a sense of accomplishment - similar to the feeling you have when you finish a chapter of a novel.
Since I don't like linear games, the approach the interactive fiction crowd has taken is appealing to me. Emily Short's work is a very good example of what I am talking about. (I might have mentioned her before in this thread) She has written several short works of interactive fiction that can be replayed several times and still offer a different experience each time. Some of these are only a single conversation. I think this idea can be applied in an RPG context to make a "casual RPG" type experience. I like the idea of a complex jewel of an adventure, something that can be played through in a sitting, but has many facets to be explored in subsequent play throughs. Admittedly I have struggled and failed to achieve this with Goblin Boy so far. But I think its more of a failure of my discipline to keep the story small rather than a failure of the concept of a tight RPG.
I think the walkthrough or guide book or spoilers etc... is one method to still have an epic but provide a reminder for someone that comes back to the story.
Another way to handle this I think is to shorten the required playing time to reach a satisfactory ending. You could still maintain an epic but divide it up into manageable pieces. These could be episodes, chapters etc.... Make each of these sections playable in less than two hours (preferably one), and when the section is finished the player can walk away with a sense of accomplishment - similar to the feeling you have when you finish a chapter of a novel.
Since I don't like linear games, the approach the interactive fiction crowd has taken is appealing to me. Emily Short's work is a very good example of what I am talking about. (I might have mentioned her before in this thread) She has written several short works of interactive fiction that can be replayed several times and still offer a different experience each time. Some of these are only a single conversation. I think this idea can be applied in an RPG context to make a "casual RPG" type experience. I like the idea of a complex jewel of an adventure, something that can be played through in a sitting, but has many facets to be explored in subsequent play throughs. Admittedly I have struggled and failed to achieve this with Goblin Boy so far. But I think its more of a failure of my discipline to keep the story small rather than a failure of the concept of a tight RPG.
#87
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by Andarian - September 03, 2011, 04:29:18 PMI'm more of a fan of the "Spoiler File" combined with thorough use of journal entries to help players understand where they are and what they can or should be doing. That's the approach I use in my modules, and my journal entries tend to be somewhat like a dynamic walkthrough as a result. If you know what the potential sticking points are in the playthrough and can provide ready-to-hand information for players who get stuck, that can be less immersion-breaking than reading a completely OOC walkthrough that gives you a formula of what to do.
#88
General Discussion / Re: pondering on the "flow" of...
Last post by TimG - September 03, 2011, 03:47:54 PMRather than start a new thread I thought I'd add this perspective here since it sort of applies.
The value of "walkthroughs"
Some players (me) can only play NWN in fits and starts. The chance to sit down and play for hours at a time is rare and getting rarer. If there is a chance for multiple hours of play I try to put a group together rather than waste valuable playing time on a single player experience. Because of work, home life and the normal commitments of life I don't always have the brainpower to devote to figuring out an esoteric puzzle that is elegant and well thought out (read: complicated). Other times, because of starting and stopping play time over and over it is easy to forget what has been done and what hasn't. Even the journal doesn't go into any real detail on plots missed.
So I come the the "walkthrough". Yes, it diminishes the play experience some but it also makes it possible for players with time constraints to "play through" when you get stuck. Sometimes it's as simple as forgetting to head north (a recent example) other times is can be really tough to figure out (the last level of Eye of the Beholder).
When a lot of your time is spent thinking about payroll, inventory, electric bill and car repairs the time on NWN needs to be fun escapism rather than tedium and frustration.
That's my defense of the walkthrough
The value of "walkthroughs"
Some players (me) can only play NWN in fits and starts. The chance to sit down and play for hours at a time is rare and getting rarer. If there is a chance for multiple hours of play I try to put a group together rather than waste valuable playing time on a single player experience. Because of work, home life and the normal commitments of life I don't always have the brainpower to devote to figuring out an esoteric puzzle that is elegant and well thought out (read: complicated). Other times, because of starting and stopping play time over and over it is easy to forget what has been done and what hasn't. Even the journal doesn't go into any real detail on plots missed.
So I come the the "walkthrough". Yes, it diminishes the play experience some but it also makes it possible for players with time constraints to "play through" when you get stuck. Sometimes it's as simple as forgetting to head north (a recent example) other times is can be really tough to figure out (the last level of Eye of the Beholder).
When a lot of your time is spent thinking about payroll, inventory, electric bill and car repairs the time on NWN needs to be fun escapism rather than tedium and frustration.
That's my defense of the walkthrough
#89
General Discussion / Re: A New Novel is Born
Last post by Tybae - August 21, 2011, 07:20:39 PMQuote from: QSW on August 19, 2011, 01:07:14 PM
It's a great idea. KooKoo also published some of his short stories in Kindle format, as well as sold his novel as an e-book a few months back.
Indeed he did. He is going to publish everything he is writing in e-form. He feels it's the best way to get your material out there. He even has some free stuff that is available for reading. Authors Let's Get Acquainted.
#90
General Discussion / Re: A New Novel is Born
Last post by QSW - August 19, 2011, 01:07:14 PMIt's a great idea. KooKoo also published some of his short stories in Kindle format, as well as sold his novel as an e-book a few months back.